Ecstatic
Awareness #8 -- Faith vs. Beliefs, and Spiritual Power
PowerChat: *** Entered The New Age on 1/17/00 at 07:28 PM
***
RBCF
3000: Good evening, dear friends
RBCF
3000: We'll be starting class in a
minute. It will be the 8th session of "Ecstatic Awareness"
Log
Count: There were 12 member(s) in The New
Age at 07:30 PM
RBCF
Heart: Tonight's is the eighth class
in the series, on the
RBCF
Heart: theme of "How is Faith
different from beliefs, and how
RBCF
Heart: is it related to Spiritual
Power?"
RBCF
3000: Once we get started, we'll be on
"informal protocol"
RBCF
3000: which just means you let me finish
an idea and then
RBCF
3000: watch for me to open the floor for
discussion, ok?
RBCF
3000: Ok, so we can start, we ask that
you take greetings
RBCF
3000: and private conversation into IMs,
and we have a
RBCF
3000: wowser of a theme tonight!
RBCF
3000: Welcome, everyone. Tonight is our
eighth class in
RBCF
3000: Ecstatic Awareness: "How is
Faith different from
RBCF
3000: beliefs, and how is it related to
Spiritual Power?" Once
RBCF
3000: again, for those who are joining us
for the first time,
RBCF
3000: the way we are using the word
"ecstatic" here means
RBCF
3000: entering into states of
consciousness, accompanied by
RBCF
3000: transformation of being, in which
the supernatural
RBCF
3000: and the Miraculous can be witnessed
and experienced
RBCF
3000: directly, even including the realms
of Divinity.
RBCF
3000: .
RBCF
3000: Before we begin tonight's lesson,
let's hear if any of
RBCF
3000: you are trying some of the
exercises we've been
RBCF
3000: discussing. These include stopping
the internal
RBCF
3000: dialogue; listening, tasting and
feeling on deep levels;
RBCF
3000: dream and trance work; and infinitely
prolonged
RBCF
3000: meditation. Go right ahead if you've been trying any
RBCF
3000: of these ...
RochelleDo:
meditation is incredible for
becoming more awae
RochelleDo:
and the stillness we do not normally
allow
RochelleDo:
ourselves
RBCF
3000: RochelleDo, did you find it awfully
tedious when you first
RBCF
3000: started meditation? I sure did
SparrowOvQ:
its stops all internal dialogue and
hits every level of your being
Saeve88:
I cannot shut my mind off
Saeve88:
I find it hard to meditate
Saeve88:
to shut external off
Saeve88:
any advice?
RochelleDo:
I would have if I had done it
earlier in my life
RochelleDo:
I knew now was the time
RochelleDo:
it will be ages before it is as
special as it
RochelleDo:
might be maybe but the stillness i
did so require
Raquelwel:
3000 - When I meditate I get so relaxed
that I fall asleep?
FlowerJJN:
keep saying 'I am slowing Down My
Internal Dialogue' Saeve .. it works
Saeve88:
I want to get in touch with my guides
Saeve88:
and i have ahard time doing it
Saeve88:
I have yet for them to get in touch
with me
Saeve88:
I am struggling with this
SparrowOvQ:
or say Saeve 4000 times nothing else
FlowerJJN:
they will get in touch with you ..
Selph2000:
Sae..instead of stopping it...try stepping
out
DECLIGHT:
it is not necessary to shut down
internal dialogue
Raquelwel:
Flower - I have asked them to get in
touch with me, but nothing so far
DCizunas:
Raquel, did you ever stop to think that this
is what your guides think is the best thing...
DCizunas:
...many things are also seen in a dream
state
RochelleDo:
It is a cumulative thing,
meditation...must be
RochelleDo:
persevered with
FlowerJJN:
No need to ask .... when they think it is
ready they will come ..
RBCF
3000: Saeve, I don't even *try* to
"shut my mind off" -- that
RBCF
3000: doesn't really work, does it? I do it by going toward an
RBCF
3000: inner focus-- hard to describe, but
it emerges.
Saeve88:
okay
RochelleDo:
just allow, accept
Raquelwel:
DC - I wish I could remember anything
afterwards tho
DCizunas:
Saeve, greetings...greetings all
RochelleDo:
its all alright and acceptable
SparrowOvQ:
Graz what do you do to turn off ?
DCizunas:
Ah Raquel, just put out the thought that
you wish to remember...
Saeve88:
I find it very frustrating
Saeve88:
to try
Saeve88:
I teach school all day
Raquelwel:
DC - I've done that too
RochelleDo:
Saeve, do not have expectations
Saeve88:
and I am so wired at night
DCizunas:
...I have also had success asked to be
roused from meditation at a certain time
Saeve88:
I canot relax
Saeve88:
to meditate
RochelleDo:
just allow what happens and accept
it
Saeve88:
i am trying very hard to do it
Saeve88:
but nothing is happening
RochelleDo:
do not try so hard
RBCF
3000: Saeve, I was taught to do my
meditation first thing in the
RBCF
3000: morning, before *everything*!
SparrowOvQ:
that the trouble saeve trying
Grazhopprr:
meditation tapes i make for myself work
better for me than loose gemini mind
FlowerJJN:
Saeve .. my mind was always going ...
what I told you works .. after a while you will not
Saeve88:
and i feel I have gifts to find
FlowerJJN:
have to say it ..
RochelleDo:
yes
SparrowOvQ:
Graz thats a good idea
DCizunas:
Raquel, just be assured that it will
come in time, nothing is easy at first
Selph2000:
Saeve..what do you find relaxing?
Saeve88:
music
Saeve88:
quiet places
Saeve88:
lying down
SEEKNGSTUD:
I have no desire to "turn
off" my thoughts! <--not a
zombie wannabe
Raquelwel:
DC - I suspect so, just be patient
RBCF
3000: Anyway, we all have to struggle
with these exercises,
RBCF
3000: because they go against our
habits. And that is the very
RBCF
3000: point-- it is our habit NOT to
notice the Miraculous!
Grazhopprr:
very comfortable music with your
voice is a good way to start
RochelleDo:
just dont "expect" from
meditation or you defeat
RochelleDo:
the purpose
FlowerJJN:
that is meditation also ... Saeve ...
does not have to be formal
Saeve88:
okay
RBCF
3000: SEEKNGSTUD, then this might
possibly not be the right class for you at this time, eh?
RBCF
Heart: Tonight's is the eighth class
in the series, on the
RBCF
Heart: theme of "How is Faith
different from beliefs, and how
RBCF
Heart: is it related to Spiritual
Power?"
Raquelwel:
Rochelle - I'm sure expecting doesn't
help
Selph2000:
listening to music and all that you named
can be practice as mediation
AsianLotus:
I think faith is a manifestation of the
spirit, beliefs are what we are taught
Suzy0111:
I learned mine
DCizunas:
Raquel...kinda like being pregnant and
waiting for it to happen...LOL!!
SEEKNGSTUD:
Faith & beliefs are imagined
spiritual "power" for the weak minded
RBCF
3000: Ok, let's move along. This class is
not on meditational
RBCF
3000: practices primarily. So please hold comments once again
RBCF
3000: for the next idea. I appreciate your forbearance
RBCF
3000: Ok, once again PROTOCOL please, for
a minute ........................................
RBCF
3000: First of all, what does faith have
to do with achieving
RBCF
3000: ecstatic states of awareness? Maybe
nothing, if we just
RBCF
3000: simply mean by it some general
religious feelings or
RBCF
3000: beliefs, or a special degree of
trust. But in the lineages
RBCF
3000: that I follow, faith has nothing to
do with believing
RBCF
3000: anything, nor with the borrowed
highs from
RBCF
3000: charismatic experiences.
RBCF
3000: .
RBCF
3000: This Faith that I am describing is
the core of being
Rebspirit1:
Heart...belief is often part of a
system...whereas, faith is based upon inner belief
RBCF
3000: that we each have at our very
center, the Rock which
RBCF
3000: never wavers, but which we have
covered over with
RBCF 3000:
concerns, compromises, considerations,
and "getting
RBCF
3000: along", which I believe really
means making our
RBCF
3000: spirituality a lower priority than
survival maintenance.
RBCF
3000: .
RBCF
3000: Observation and tradition show that
we rarely ever get
RBCF
3000: to this core until we have
undergone major
RBCF
3000: transformation and, even then, it
rarely lasts unless we
RBCF
3000: are kept in an environment which
supports that
RBCF
3000: change, like various ashrams in
India, or Tibetan
RBCF
3000: temples or tribal villages way off
in the jungle.
RBCF
3000: .
Log
Count: There were 17 member(s) in The New
Age at 07:45 PM
RBCF
3000: The degree of change required for
this kind of
RBCF
3000: transformation may occur by accident,
as in near-
RBCF
3000: death experiences (NDEs), surviving
a lightning bolt
RBCF
3000: or a crash or other sudden
accidents, or prolonged
RBCF
3000: intense situations like torture,
being held captive at
RBCF
3000: gunpoint, or facing imminent death;
sometimes the
RBCF
3000: change occurs from a extended
illness or painful injury.
RBCF
3000: .
RBCF
3000: The other main set of circumstances
which cause the
RBCF
3000: accidental (non-intentional)
movement of faith, are a
RBCF
3000: whole range of what our society
refers to as "mental or
RBCF
3000: emotional illness," autism or
psychosis. In other
RBCF
3000: societies, such people have often
been put into service
RBCF
3000: as oracles, seers, artists and
performers, not having
RBCF
3000: many of the limitations that
well-adjusted, normal
RBCF
3000: people have.
RBCF
3000: .
RBCF
3000: I should make a bit of a
distinction here-- I haven't
RBCF
3000: found that people that we classify
as neurotic or
RBCF
3000: maladjusted generally make the
kinds of shifts we are
RBCF
3000: looking for here. The shift takes
something fairly
RBCF
3000: extreme to "kick over"
enough for our other side to
RBCF
3000: show itself-- a quantum jump.
RBCF
3000: .
RBCF
3000: For that reason, when the impetus
is accidental or
RBCF
3000: external, the result is far more
often the degeneration
RBCF
3000: or disintegration of the ego. It is
only in rare instances
RBCF
3000: of these cases that the ordinary
ego is replaced with a
RBCF
3000: knowing essence, something which
transcends the
RBCF
3000: ordeals.
RBCF
3000: **** Do any of you know people with
unusual abilities
RBCF
3000: like this, or have undergone these
kinds of ordeals
RBCF
3000: yourself? Go right ahead with comments -- open floor
RBCF
3000: now .....
Rebspirit1:
3000...surpass the nuances of the
environment and hold on to one's center
Rebspirit1:
well-adjusted?
AsianLotus:
Faith is a knowing that your beliefs
are well founded
AsianLotus:
Faith is a knowing that you can do
anything and giving yourself the power to
Rebspirit1:
Asian...but, cud we use belief in
lieu of faith in that sentence? And how wud it change meaning
SparrowOvQ:
one thing though Faith without
action behind it does not move the mustard seed or mountain
AsianLotus:
I think in a way it's synonymous
Rebspirit1:
3000....now that is what makes for a
spiritual being..one who can
Suzy0111:
I can do it
FlowerJJN:
are you saying that ordinary people ..
cannot transcend 3000 ??
AsianLotus:
No
Grazhopprr:
average humans are too busy living
and surviving to think about it
SparrowOvQ:
I do not believe that in every case
there need be a personal life tragedy to attain
SparrowOvQ:
but then thats just my belief
DECLIGHT:
methods come and go...the simple reality
they are about stays
RBCF
3000: FlowerJJN, I am saying that we
ourselves have to
RBCF
3000: *become* non-0rdinary to transcend.
Makes sense?
DECLIGHT:
simplicity is the simpler path,
obviously
Rebspirit1:
3000..there were quite a few gross generalizations
in that rhetoric?
DCizunas:
Before that callus of responsibility
takes over, we all have those abilities
DECLIGHT:
to meditate is merely to look at
yourself to discover yourself
RBCF
3000: Grazhopprr, exactly-- what does it
take to "get busy" with transcendence?
FlowerJJN:
okay .... :) 3000 because most that do transcend .. with
humility .. seem ordinary ..
SEEKNGSTUD:
so if I understand you right..
psychotic people are the "faithful" and the faith can only be
SEEKNGSTUD:
practiced in an ashram or away from
the real world?
Simmarah:
Define Non Ordinary?
RBCF
3000: Rebspirit, yes, good observation
ClaritySS:
Flower,
I think what he is saying is
that something very dramatic has to happen in one's life
Grazhopprr:
3k, the convincing of the human ego
to undergo the necessary methods with follow thru
Rebspirit1:
3000...there are those who travel
and find faith or belief
Simmarah:
I have lived about ten yrs altogether in
Yoga Ashrams
RBCF
3000: FlowerJJN, right-- often deliberately,
to blend in, for several reasons, I've noticed.
SparrowOvQ:
that is stories so often heard again
I do not buy that it has to occur to attain
ClaritySS:
for it to make us have the faith to
manifest these experiences.. Flower.
DECLIGHT:
instead of thinking your beliefs about
yourself are true
Rebspirit1:
3000...some read books and find what
others must suffer to learn
DCizunas:
Seeky, you can get away from it all
anyplace you happen to be...state of mind
LucidDreamweaver:
Sometimes it takes one to fall flat
on their back to be able to look upward
Rebspirit1:
3000..there is no unique pattern to
growth of a soul...I think
FlowerJJN:
Yes ... Clarity ... I gathered that's
what he meant and I disagree
SparrowOvQ:
Why not then if you want great
spiritualness, faith and powers just take a hot branding iron
SparrowOvQ:
or poker and fizz away
RBCF
3000: SEEKNGSTUD, only
"psychotic" in a certain metaphorical
RBCF
3000: respect, and it really does help to
begin away from
RBCF
3000: ordinary circumstances, and then
come back into life and
RBCF
3000: work on it there.
Grazhopprr:
sparrow, some have done that, lol
Simmarah:
Sparrow
in some sense that is a good analogy
Simmarah:
Testing the fire
RBCF
3000: Rebspirit, you are right-- each
path is unique. And yet,
RBCF
3000: there are similar things that are
done along each path,
RBCF
3000: don't you agree?
SEEKNGSTUD:
sounds like escaping to me! And I prefer being well adjusted and not
psychotic!
Grazhopprr:
the "ego" needs to be convinced
that there is another side to existance before experience
Grazhopprr:
retains
DECLIGHT:
soul is the infinite mechanism of
self...it needs no learning...but we foist that upon it
Grazhopprr:
remembering dreams needs ego's
support to remember
ClaritySS:
Flower, I agree with you on disagreeing with him, but then again, sometimes
a kick in the ...
ClaritySS:
butt is what we need to wake up to
realize our power, flower!
Simmarah:
GRAZ
so you are saying ego has to be tricked?
DCizunas:
Seek, I prefer not to be adjusted by
anyone or anything, I'd rather be me
Kirstenese:
agree, Graz, and needs to trust that
other side too
RBCF
3000: SEEKNGSTUD, how are you doing with
your "well-adjusted" program?
Grazhopprr:
simm, not tricked, convinced of the
reality of the experience
Simmarah:
GRAZ but reality is relevant to
situation only
FlowerJJN:
I am not sure that is necessary Clarity
:):) but it happens at times
Grazhopprr:
2 realities can be understood
RBCF
3000: Simmarah, I'd say that the ego
always has to be tricked. It
RBCF
3000: would never ever ever ever go for
everything it's going to
RBCF
3000: be put through!
ClaritySS:
Yes , God knows, I have got butt kicked a
few times, Flower!
SEEKNGSTUD:
I am doing quite well so long as I
recognize when someone else tries to manipulate my mind !
Simmarah:
I believe ultimately ego has to be
dissolved
Simmarah:
though mine is fighting that LOL
FlowerJJN:
Ego .. is the essence of who we are ....
Grazhopprr:
i am here, but i am there also, can
be understood by human mind/ego, thus retention
DivaofFire:
Studley, we are all manipulated...
RBCF
3000: SEEKNGSTUD, I just wonder why this
class fascinates you
RBCF
3000: then, enough for you to sit through
time after time...?
DivaofFire:
3K.. maybe cause he is your favorite
student?? <G>
ClaritySS:
I totally agree with you , but do we
always remember this, Flower, in the time of the ....
Planetshpr:
I disagree Flower. To me, ego is the package of fear, old
programs, issues and illusion we
Grazhopprr:
simm, ego can't be dissolved, it is
you here or in spirit. it just needs to
be convinced
ClaritySS:
experience?
Planetshpr:
used to believe was us.
Planetshpr:
it is not the TRUE us, imho.
RBCF
3000: Simmarah, it makes sense, doesn't
it, that there has to be a
RBCF
3000: place to stand outside of that
which is undergoing the
RBCF
3000: ordeal, right?
FlowerJJN:
That is also who we are Planet :) no
disagreement there ..
RBCF
Heart: please keep greets to Ims
Simmarah:
GRAZ
part of Yogi Bhajan's teaching state neccesity to let go of ego
Simmarah:
which I agree with
Simmarah:
IS FAITH a "system"?
SEEKNGSTUD:
it helps me recognise BS from
reality...
DECLIGHT:
how interesting that we sit here and
agree and disagree as though that were important
Grazhopprr:
simm, no prob, heh. we go our own ways in the end.
RBCF
3000: Simmarah, I regard Faith as a great
gift, and find that I can
RBCF
3000: describe some sort of
"system" for realizing Faith in
RBCF
3000: practice.
SparrowOvQ:
and Yogi Berra says " how can
you hit the ball and plan on it at the same time
FlowerJJN:
It is not really important, DECLight ... as long as we accept what others believe
.. I think
ClaritySS:
don't you think it is important,
Declight?
AsianLotus:
Dec I don't think this is an open
forum, have to wait
Simmarah:
3000
I would say that it only makes "sense" fro ma "rational
" view point
SparrowOvQ:
RBCF
3000: SparrowOvQ, quantum physics asks
the same question-- we'll be looking at that next week
DECLIGHT:
I do not accept what others
believe...merely their right to believe it
Simmarah:
DEC Exactly!!
FlowerJJN:
Thats what I meant DECLIGHT :)
Simmarah:
agree
AsianLotus:
True Dec
DANZ649:
Dec, true enough.
Grazhopprr:
sometimes it's good not to believe
in anything. just allow what happens.
AsianLotus:
Right on Graz
Planetshpr:
thanks, Graz... right on point...
DECLIGHT:
but even though they have the right to
believe whatever, does not make it okay for them
DoveOP:
drat, something wrong with that key
RBCF
3000: Simmarah, maybe it would be fair to
say that those who
RBCF
3000: have the gift of Faith go through
these motions as a
RBCF
3000: gesture...?
Simmarah:
Actually I believe in a lot of things
others do Just not in same way or same
Order
Planetshpr:
not my business, Dec.
FlowerJJN:
But who are we to decide that DECLIGHT ??
DECLIGHT:
the deeper the entrenchment in widely
unaligned thought, the less beneficial
Planetshpr:
whether what someone believes works
for them, is not for me to say.
ClaritySS:
Declight...I think it can be important ,
I mean what each of us beliefs will affect the ...
DANZ649:
when something "just
happens", you have a choice to believe or change it.
Planetshpr:
... unless ... <grinning> they ask me.
DECLIGHT:
it is anyone's business if they care to
make it so
Simmarah:
3000
I see Faith as applied consciousness
The Action of doing your "beliefs"
ClaritySS:
universal energy, Declight
RBCF
3000: Planetshpr, how is your Faith doing
right now?
Planetshpr:
<smiling broadly>... most
excellent 3K!
DoveOP:
manifest destiny, self fulfilling
prophesy
Kirstenese:
I agree, Clarity, good point.
Grazhopprr:
belief can be a good start, if
following others steps. but you end up
in your own path
AsianLotus:
3000, I have faith and belief in ONE
thing, myself
Planetshpr:
to live as I do, 3K, one MUST have
faith.
Log
Count: There were 22 member(s) in The New
Age at 08:00 PM
Planetshpr:
or go down in flames.
DANZ649:
lol, Planet.
RBCF 3000:
Simmarah, maybe then we should say that
there are
RBCF
3000: several levels of faith, in which a
preliminary level would
RBCF
3000: be doing the practices faithfully,
eh?
DECLIGHT:
the single object of meditation is far
beyond any energy
Kirstenese:
the colective/mass consciousness
RBCF
3000: Planetshpr, that's what I say, and
sometimes I see no way
RBCF
3000: to "live as I do" another
minute!
Simmarah:
3000
I would say that that is the only real level IMO in this form/body
ClaritySS:
Does anybody know what 'mass events '
means?
Grazhopprr:
ask a woman if they believe in only
one hairstyle
Planetshpr:
^5 3K! LOL!
JacobJG:
FAith is mostly what we'
JacobJG:
faith is mostly what we're inculcated
with growing up
JacobJG:
it's what so many stick with just to be
good children
RBCF
3000: <-- bumps hips and does a jig
with Planet
Planetshpr:
hmmm... well.. there is faith, Jacob... then there is BLIND faith... lol!
AsianLotus:
Right on Planet
RBCF
3000: Planetshpr, does it seem like
"blind faith" is really even *faith*???
ClaritySS:
We are all here together and yet, all
kinds of subjects are being discussed, if we were ...
JacobJG:
isn't all faith reasonless?
JacobJG:
so then blind faith IS the same
Planetshpr:
3K... are we polishing an act to
take on the road here? roflmao!
ClaritySS:
if we were sharing the same subject, we
would be sharing realities as well.
DECLIGHT:
faith is what you are
Planetshpr:
No, 3K... blind faith is actually
unexamined belief sets.
Simmarah:
3000
?? Absolute Faith ?? Does it
need "eyes" ??
Simmarah:
<grin>
DECLIGHT:
looking at yourself will reveal this
AsianLotus:
Right DEC
Grazhopprr:
blind faith in anothers steps is
what this lifetime might be, for some, no judgements
DECLIGHT:
and the confidence in the reality of
YOU...becomes your evidence of faith
DECLIGHT:
(or things not seen)
DCizunas:
Sounds to me like the definition being
given is that faith is gut instinct...
DCizunas:
...and belief is adhering to a set of
preexisting tenets
RBCF 3000:
Simmarah, I find that it somehow has its
very own "eyes"
DANZ649:
blind faith is what we are told and
we"blindly"follow it.
Simmarah:
3000
:o )
Planetshpr:
not a judgment, Graz... some operate on beliefs they never actually
examine. just IS.
Kirstenese:
faith= believing but not seeing
DECLIGHT:
faith has nothing whatsoever to do with
believing
SEEKNGSTUD:
faith is what one tries when they
DON'T know
Grazhopprr:
which is what they need at that
time. openness to ideas follow
eventually.
DoveOP:
and if the belief is strong enough,
the see follows
RBCF
3000: Kirstenese, does it make sense that
we have to give up our
RBCF
3000: limited "seeing" in order
to replace it with seeing in more
RBCF
3000: dimensions?
RBCF
3000: SEEKNGSTUD, good way to put it
DANZ649:
I have learned not to
"believe" everything I am told, it must be examined, as Planet said.
Freethinker40:
beliefs are who we are....having faith
in those beliefs is the spirtual
DCizunas:
Me too Danz
LucidDreamweaver:
Very well put Free
Kirstenese:
3000 I believe that at first we need
to give up our "seeing" and play , sort of speak,
Kirstenese:
with the imagination.
DANZ649:
applauding Free.
RBCF
3000: Freethinker, somehow I think it's
just the opposite. How
RBCF
3000: could *beliefs* be "who we
are"??? Beliefs are words-- are
RBCF
3000: we born with words?
Grazhopprr:
belief is how this physical universe
is formed, agreed upon. lifting mind
above that
Grazhopprr:
agreement is learning to not believe
DECLIGHT:
Kirstenese.....good call
Freethinker40:
not so.......3000
AsianLotus:
We are born with knowledge and the
understanding of words
RBCF
3000: Kirstenese, right, although I've
gotten lost in imagination, myself, a time or two
Freethinker40:
we are what we believe we are to be
DoveOP:
why is a belief not a thought?
3000.... or a dream even
RBCF
3000: Freethinker, please go on ...
Freethinker40:
we create reality through our beliefs
SEEKNGSTUD:
Free..nope..we are what we are...
then we make up a theory about it
LucidDreamweaver:
Yes
RBCF
3000: Freethinker, I completely agree,
but does that make us who we are???
Kirstenese:
:)
3000, I understand
Grazhopprr:
"not agreeing" with this
physical dimensions agreement got me in trouble once, lol
DECLIGHT:
a belief IS a thought...and erroneous
illusion thought...unreal thought
Planetshpr:
how's that, Graz?
Freethinker40:
your beliefs create who you are
DECLIGHT:
faith is the single real thought...and
YOU are IT
Planetshpr:
we don't KNOW that beliefs are erroneous
or illusionary, Dec...
RBCF
3000: Grazhopprr, me, lots more than
once-- getting tired of community service
DECLIGHT:
Planet...perhaps...but it is there for
you to find out if you wish
Grazhopprr:
planet, i built a mantra for
conscious use in the daytime. driving a
truck isn't good for
SEEKNGSTUD:
Free.. you are ..first..then you
come up with a belief about it
DCizunas:
But Free, by giving up those beliefs can
lead us to greater dimensions
Grazhopprr:
leaving the body
Planetshpr:
LOL! Graz! OUCH!
Freethinker40:
yes......dc
DoveOP:
Grazhopprr:
scared the phtttttt outa me, rofl
Planetshpr:
Agreed, DEC, absolutely.
DCizunas:
Graz, tell me what road you're on so I
won't be there...LOL!!
DECLIGHT:
and positutely
Grazhopprr:
don't do that no mo
Planetshpr:
zip-zap, one minute you're out, one
minute yer back in yer body? WOW!
RBCF
3000: Grazhopprr, why should it be a
risk, if the "truck-driving"
RBCF
3000: "reality" disappears,
replaced by wherever we go next?
Planetshpr:
ahhh, the challenge of the New Age,
3K... navigating between consensus reality and ... um...
Planetshpr:
the higher plane?
Grazhopprr:
well, i felt a bit responsible for
the truck going 40 miles an hour in rush hour traffic, lo
Planetshpr:
one foot on each.
RBCF
3000: For example, THIS reality is where
I went when I disappeared the last one, I think ...
Planetshpr:
WOW! good'un, 3K! YES!
Grazhopprr:
news flash, empty box truck carreens
into traffic, major back up on i-5
Planetshpr:
Film at 11, eh Graz?
DCizunas:
Foxes brought up something the other
night that I've been thinking of...maybe someone...
Freethinker40:
change a belief and you change your
perciption of reality
DCizunas:
...steps in during times we are away to
carry on our everyday life
RBCF
3000: Freethinker, exactly true, I
believe.
Freethinker40:
this is how physical reality works
Grazhopprr:
heh,,,,body double
RBCF
3000: DCizunas, it's always ourselves, I
find
RBCF
3000: Ok, let's continue tonight's class,
dear friends. Please hold
RBCF
3000: comments a minute while I roll this
next turkey out :)
RBCF
3000: ...........................................
RBCF
3000: Ok, we have talked about
unintentional or
RBCF
3000: serendipitous shifts into the
hidden side of ourselves.
RBCF
3000: Now let's take a look at traditions
(or lineages) which
RBCF
3000: deliberately induce extreme shifts,
not only over an
RBCF
3000: extended period of time, but with a
focus and intensity
RBCF
3000: designed to crack the shell of
normalcy and security.
RBCF
3000: .
RBCF
3000: The Eastern traditions tend to be
life-long, integrative
RBCF
3000: disciplines, as depicted in the old
Kung-Fu TV series (at
RBCF
3000: least, I like to think so),
combining daily practices of
RBCF
3000: meditation, service, martial arts,
knowledge studies
RBCF
3000: and special challenges, like
walking on rice-paper
RBCF
3000: without leaving a footprint, or
handling red-hot
RBCF
3000: hardware.
RBCF
3000: .
RBCF
3000: Aside from physical challenges, the
intellect may be
RBCF
3000: overwhelmed with Zen koans
("What is the sound of
RBCF
3000: one hand clapping?") or Taoist
conundrums, and the
RBCF
3000: emotions will be challenged with
moral dilemmas--
RBCF
3000: who shall live and who shall die,
when to temper
RBCF
3000: justice with mercy, when a lie is
more true than the
RBCF
3000: truth ("where the truth
lies"), and so on.
RBCF
3000: .
RBCF
3000: Those are the preliminary
exercises. As we get deeper
RBCF
3000: into these paths, our very soul is
tested. This is what is
RBCF
3000: depicted in so many ways in
scripture and mythology.
RBCF
3000: On the one side, we are tempted
with wealth and glory
RBCF
3000: and gratification, usually at
someone else's expense,
RBCF
3000: and on the other side we are left
helpless, friendless,
RBCF
3000: shunned and despised, with no
respite in sight.
RBCF
3000: .
RBCF
3000: What we usually don't realize is
that it is the very
RBCF
3000: futility of finding the
"treasure at the end of the
RBCF
3000: rainbow" (since a rainbow is
an infinite circle) which
RBCF
3000: leads us into the
"underworld" of our own
RBCF
3000: subconscious, and it is there that
we find the real
RBCF
3000: treasures. The risk is almost
always stated as death,
RBCF
3000: madness, or becoming trapped and
enslaved by
RBCF
3000: monsters like the cyclops, the
Gorgon or dragons.
RBCF
3000: .
RBCF
3000: The way I have come to understand
these metaphors
RBCF
3000: is that these are not risks, but
*certainties* which we
RBCF
3000: will encounter on this journey. We
will go through
RBCF
3000: madness as our limited ego
enocunters the Abyss; we
RBCF
3000: will be (and we already are!)
trapped by "monsters"--
RBCF
3000: the fixations of our self-deceit,
delusions,
RBCF
3000: "righteousness,"
indoctrinations and, most insidious of
RBCF
3000: all, the decisions we started
making when we were
RBCF
3000: infants reacting to a rather harsh
world totally beyond
RBCF
3000: our comprehension.
RBCF
3000: .
Log
Count: There were 21 member(s) in The New
Age at 08:15 PM
RBCF
3000: We consider these infantile
decisions to be our
RBCF
3000: "nature." We say,
"That's just who I am," whenever
RBCF
3000: someone tries to point our insanity
out to us. That is
RBCF
3000: why we die when we finally come to
that terrible and
RBCF
3000: loathesome place in ourselves where
all our old ideas
RBCF
3000: of self collapse.
RBCF
3000: .
RBCF
3000: When people are tested at this
level, it is very common
RBCF 3000:
to undergo psychotic break, and often
commit suicide.
RBCF
3000: Or they may go on a berserk
rampage, or put together
RBCF
3000: a cult whose principles may sound
very nice and
RBCF
3000: spiritual, but end up in seige with
the FBI, or in a
RBCF
3000: cataclysm of mass self-destruction.
RBCF
3000: ****** Are these notions completely
absurd, or do they
RBCF
3000: start to make sense out of a
senseless world? Open
RBCF
3000: floor now, please go right ahead
...
Lorinaz:
soul steps out of the body while the
body sleeps
Grazhopprr:
sounds like me, lo
Planetshpr:
that is what is promised if we DO
NOT go into our underworld, 3K.... in
any event.
Planetshpr:
COUNT on breakdown, disease, the
hell of a belief system that no longer operates in reality.
Chesster67:
why would the self want to destroy
itself..is self-realisation self annihilation?
RBCF
3000: Planetshpr, doesn't it seem like we
can volunteer to
RBCF
3000: embrace the Dark, or be dragged
into it anyway?
Planetshpr:
What we resist, persists, 3K. What we embrace, gives grace.
Planetshpr:
(copyright!)
AsianLotus:
I don't think it would Chess
RBCF
3000: Planetshpr, yer a poet, n you
showit
Planetshpr:
lol!
Grazhopprr:
don't look down
Chesster67:
asian, then why suicide?
DECLIGHT:
the self is presently getting what it
wants...but thinks it doesn't want
AsianLotus:
Karma
Planetshpr:
that is a personal truth from the
very journey you describe.
DCizunas:
That thought train seems to reflect
current times...gone is the perfect family of the 50's..
AsianLotus:
A choice to leave the physical plane
DECLIGHT:
down the seeming road/path a bit, as the
self aligns itself and stabilizes,
Chesster67:
asian, do you believe in self0hatred?
DECLIGHT:
it will seem much better
DCizunas:
...we all must make our own way
Freethinker40:
agreed ........dec
RBCF
3000: Chesster, that's the very point--
the ego-self ("lower self") is
RBCF
3000: going to do everything it can NOT
to!
AsianLotus:
Not really
Drifting
Current: the self knows what it
needs
AsianLotus:
I believe in a lack of self love
Chesster67:
RBCF, i don't understand what you
mean
Chesster67:
asian, not hate?
RBCF
3000: DecLight, just takes a bit o'
patience, eh?
Grazhopprr:
self-hatred is a reality to some
AsianLotus:
No hate is really hurt
DECLIGHT:
despite our seeming trapped in lower
self...it actually does not exist
Drifting
Current: patience indeed
Chesster67:
graz, i believe we all suffer from
it
DECLIGHT:
that is why meditation becomes
necessary, to release us from that bond
Chesster67:
dec, what do you mean??
Planetshpr:
most definitely, self-hatred,
self-judgment exists. I believe it to
be the underlying sourc
RBCF
3000: Chesster, what I mean by what,
please?
Planetshpr:
e of all disease.
AsianLotus:
Sometimes we are trapped in pure
pain
DECLIGHT:
which is the BELIEF in our ego, etc.
Planetshpr:
it is always illusion... but
presents the lessons of the soul.
Drifting
Current: meditation is great stuff
to practice
DCizunas:
So true Planet
Chesster67:
RBCF, our lower self will
doeverything it cannto do?
Freethinker40:
night all
DANZ649:
Asian, you have a choice to not be
trapped.
Drifting
Current: night Free
AsianLotus:
Right Dan
DECLIGHT:
meditation when one understands it
correctly, is what we are...not something we do
AsianLotus:
I agree DEC
Chesster67:
dec, who are we?
AsianLotus:
We are he and I and many others
Drifting
Current: yesm Declight, something we
are
RBCF
3000: Chesster, nope-- our lower ego is
the resistance-- it's up to
RBCF
3000: High Self (that's where all the
Faith is) to trick and trap the
RBCF
3000: lower self into making the changes.
DECLIGHT:
the entire point of spiritual endeavor
is to release that erroneous view of self
DCizunas:
Dec, kinda like returning home after
we've been away
Chesster67:
RBCF, how can we trick ourselves?
DECLIGHT:
DC...in a sense, yes
Drifting
Current: ego is good tricker
DECLIGHT:
of like awaking from a dream
RBCF
3000: DECLIGHT, right-- and yet it is not
the erroneous-view that releases itself, eh?
DECLIGHT:
only to go back to bed so we can dream
some more LOL
Grazhopprr:
tricking the lower self only ticks
it off, lol. waste of time in the end
DANZ649:
coyote medicine.
DCizunas:
Good analogy Dec
RBCF
3000: Chesster, do you have a cat or a
dog? How do you clip its claws or give it medicine, etc.?
Drifting
Current: maybe bed, maybe a sitting
DECLIGHT:
3000...the erroneous view can do
nothing...but attention on the reality of self can
DECLIGHT:
it can completely reverse thought and
undo error
RBCF
3000: DECLIGHT, wonderful-- you have
anticipated my next comments, coming up in a minute.
DECLIGHT:
as attention to what is real presents
understanding that replaces beliefs
Planetshpr:
there ARE tricks, 3K... but... are they
really tricks?
Grazhopprr:
ego is logical, convincing the mind
works better
RBCF
3000: Grazhopprr, unless ego gets its
treats for having gone thru
RBCF
3000: it, like we do for our pets, right?
SparrowOvQ:
you all do realize that normal busy
people for the most part do not concern themselves with
SparrowOvQ:
thse things right?
SparrowOvQ:
lol
Chesster67:
RBCF, cannot the "lower
self" change by itself?
Planetshpr:
"normal busy people" --- roflmAAAAAAiooooo!!!
Grazhopprr:
3k, results work better than
trinkets
AsianLotus:
Right Sparrow
DANZ649:
what's normal??????
RBCF
3000: Planetshpr, "tricks" is a
metaphor-- could be described as a "gesture" or a dance.
SparrowOvQ:
it was a trick question
AsianLotus:
Dan?
Planetshpr:
"normal busy people" come
to me cause their lives aren't WORKING!
AsianLotus:
What's real?
DANZ649:
Planetshpr:
... a dance, 3K... I like that.
RBCF
3000: Chesster, it will never happen--
the lower self is cast in
Chesster67:
asian, all that exists
RBCF
3000: concrete very early, never really
changes.
AsianLotus:
For whom Chess
Drifting
Current: there are always ways to
manipulate words and
Drifting
Current: meanings
Chesster67:
RBCF, so we are two people?
DANZ649:
dancing is movement of energy.
AsianLotus:
My reality would not always match
others'
Chesster67:
asian, for existence itself
DANZ649:
shift, shift.
Planetshpr:
nicely put, Danz!
DECLIGHT:
Asian....re what's real....YOU R
DECLIGHT:
lol
RBCF
3000: DANZ, "normal" means not deviating.
Necessary to deviate
RBCF
3000: quite a bit to achieve the
Miraculous.
Chesster67:
asian, true
Grazhopprr:
3k, i can see you know nothing about
respect for self if you must trick it for results
AsianLotus:
:-)
RBCF
3000: Chesster, 100's or 1,000's !
Planetshpr:
Graz... self? or Self?
SparrowOvQ:
I will take my abbynormal self off
here now
DECLIGHT:
oh yes it would Asian
Grazhopprr:
either or
DANZ649:
I know 3K
AsianLotus:
3000, aren't we going around and around with beliefs and of what
importance is it?
RBCF
3000: Grazhopprr, mighty charitable of
you, to go into judgment of me personally... NOT!
Planetshpr:
another time, Sparrow....
Grazhopprr:
easy enuf with what you have said,
quite
DECLIGHT:
oh 3000...you are fun to judge
RBCF
3000: AsianLotus, this all has to be done
metaphorically-- it is
RBCF
3000: really adding up to something,
count on it
DECLIGHT:
don't spoil all our fun
AsianLotus:
Ok,
I am new at this
RBCF
3000: Now we come to our exciting
conclusion for this
RBCF
3000: evening's class -- please hold
comments while I roll
RBCF
3000: out the final section
.................................................
Planetshpr:
you guys are kidding, right? you don't KNOW that all judgment is, in the
end, SELF judgment?
DANZ649:
sometimes takes awhile to get to the
heart of the matter, Asian
DECLIGHT:
the only real judgment is reality itself
RBCF
3000: Planetshpr, I do believe you are
right about that
DECLIGHT:
what is is....simple
Grazhopprr:
it is a poor child that has parents
that trick them into things instead of teaching them
Grazhopprr:
with love
Chesster67:
amen dec
RBCF
3000: (It's ok with me if we don't come
to consensus on these
RBCF
3000: notions right now-- we're going
around something to find
RBCF
3000: out what it is
RBCF
3000: Ok, final section of the class--
RBCF
3000: ............................................................
RBCF
3000: Why would anyone choose to undergo
the collapse of
RBCF
3000: ego, and how could one possibly
trust someone or
RBCF
3000: some method willing and able to
accomplish such a
RBCF
3000: thing? Aha! Now I have a reason to bring faith back
RBCF
3000: in, after seeming to stray far away
from it.
RBCF
3000: .
RBCF
3000: Maybe the only real way to describe
this level of faith
RBCF
3000: is like when you awaken in the
morning after a string
RBCF
3000: of nightmares. All night your feet
have been stuck in
RBCF
3000: tar, your mother didn't know you,
and you were
RBCF
3000: totally helpless to prevent all
kinds of mayhem.
RBCF
3000: .
RBCF
3000: But here are the gentle rays of
warmth enticing you to
RBCF
3000: try another day in the light; here
are the sweet songs
RBCF
3000: of bluebirds and chickadees. The
sky is blue, and you
RBCF
3000: can smell your favorite breakfast
cooking in the
RBCF
3000: kitchen.
RBCF
3000: .
RBCF
3000: You start writing down your dreams,
and you realize
RBCF
3000: that there wasn't really anything
horrible in them;
RBCF
3000: everything that happened was just
exactly what it took
RBCF
3000: for you to get a particular point,
and you even feel
RBCF
3000: happy and grateful for having
received such gifts. You
RBCF
3000: find yourself looking forward to
your life, whatever
RBCF
3000: your day brings you. :)
RBCF
3000: .
RBCF
3000: What I have just described is not
faith, though-- this is
RBCF
3000: the *result* of faith. Faith is
what got us through that
RBCF
3000: dark night. It is not something we
did, because we
RBCF
3000: were helpless and entirely ignorant
of what could or
RBCF
3000: should be done. It is apparently
not anything we could
RBCF
3000: have "deserved," because
we were abominably wicked
RBCF
3000: and selfish in our nightmares.
RBCF
3000: .
Log
Count: There were 14 member(s) in The New
Age at 08:30 PM
RBCF
3000: The original Latin meaning of faith
was "to trust," but
RBCF
3000: in our nightmares we lost trust
over and over again.
RBCF
3000: So the closest meaning I can think
of would be loyalty
RBCF
3000: because, in spite of all our fear
and cynicism and self-
RBCF
3000: justification and delusion,
something held us together
RBCF
3000: long enough to wake up on this
fine, sunny morning
RBCF
3000: of the soul.
RBCF
3000: .
RBCF
3000: I promise you that, if you stay
with us on this
RBCF
3000: extraordinary journey, you will
meet the author of this
RBCF
3000: unaccountable faith, and your life
will be changed
RBCF
3000: forever.
RBCF
3000: ****** Well, friends, those are the
ideas that I'd like
RBCF
3000: you to think about for
yourselves. Now let's hear your
RBCF
3000: questions and comments.
Drifting
Current: maybe ego really is
something wicked worth
Drifting
Current: going beyond
Chesster67:
RBCF, so the christians would say
DECLIGHT:
faith is its own result
Drifting
Current: that is alot
Drifting
Current: maybe ego is worth going
beyond
Drifting
Current: we are all on a path of our
own device
Planetshpr:
3K, faith and trust are a choice.
Planetshpr:
made regardless (some times in SPITE
of) circumstances.
RBCF
3000: Planetshpr, yes, and *making* that
choice every moment takes what kind of energy?
Planetshpr:
from the toes up, 3K.
Chesster67:
RBCF, are you a christian?
RBCF
3000: Chesster, I call myself a mystical
Christian.
Drifting
Current: what we choose to recognize
may benefit us
Planetshpr:
everything I have.
AsianLotus:
3000, I have been in metaphysics for 27 yrs and never had the
opportunity to hear this
Planetshpr:
over and over, every moment.
AsianLotus:
thank you for sharing
RBCF
3000: AsianLotus, thanks, and doesn't it
make sense with what you have learned?
Grazhopprr:
will power
Chesster67:
RBCF, would you consider yourself a
Buddhist?
RBCF
3000: Chesster, yes, I am a Buddhist
Drifting
Current: there are many who see
nothing of a path
Drifting
Current: one minute it might change
and many are
Drifting
Current: instrumental in the change
RBCF
3000: Drifting Current, many what?
Planetshpr:
3K, I have a dear friend, a man of enormous
commitment to this process who says,
Planetshpr:
if he had known what it would take
when he started 22 years ago,
Planetshpr:
he would have just eaten a bullet!
DCizunas:
I can go along with that Plant!!
Drifting
Current: if any of us know, we share
what we know maybe
Planetshpr:
I knew him 22 years ago... the path was WORTH it.
Chesster67:
RBCF, do you believe Jesus' death on
the cross atones for our sins?
RBCF
Heart: commitment takes great
courage
RBCF
3000: Planetshpr, I agree-- I thought
when I decided against
RBCF
3000: suicide 40 years ago, that the
worst of it was over
Planetshpr:
roflmao 3K!!!!!!
RBCF
3000: Chesster, I have no idea what any
of that means-- please explain...
DECLIGHT:
well now, the shedding of blood for
remission...I can relate to that
DECLIGHT:
and not in the traditional Christian way
either
DANZ649:
I am grateful for the path I have
taken, lessons learned were hard, and recurring, but very
DANZ649:
well worth the journey.
Chesster67:
RBCF, do you believe that Jesus gave
his life on the cross for the sins of humanity?
RBCF
3000: DANZ, good, because there's lots
more coming!
Chesster67:
dec, in what way?
DECLIGHT:
yes DANZ....we can all be grateful for
our lives, each as wonderful as the others
FoxesTruth:
Chesster.......I think that is
FoxesTruth:
propoganda........sorry to
say.....meaning no disrespect
AsianLotus:
Well night all, thanks for the insights
Galaxon:
Chester nope...i sure don't
RBCF
3000: Chesster, no, I don't *believe* any
of those words, because
RBCF
3000: they don't have meaning for me.
Chesster67:
Foxes, can one be a christian
without believing it though?
DECLIGHT:
Chess....the belief in blood as the
source of life must be shed
DECLIGHT:
in order to see the truth of spirit as the
source of life
Drifting
Current: goodnight all I have to go
DECLIGHT:
which vision is faith
Chesster67:
RBCF, does Jesus's death mean
anything to you?
Galaxon:
chester Can one worship okra without eating it?
FoxesTruth:
Chesster........probably not......I
think
FoxesTruth:
Christians are simply defined by
believing that
FoxesTruth:
Jesus Christ is their Saviour
DCizunas:
Chesster...who sins?? All are children of "god" and
children do make mistakes
RBCF
3000: Chesster, His eternal Presence is
all that means anything to me!
Chesster67:
Dec, could you please rephrase that?
Galaxon:
Jesus died and came back to demonstrate
that death is an illusion
Chesster67:
foxes, saviour in what way?
RBCF
3000: Galaxon, good point!
DCizunas:
ITA Galax
Planetshpr:
nice work if you can get it,
Galaxon!
DECLIGHT:
Chess....I think it was phrased fine
Chesster67:
DC, we all sin
Kirstenese:
I agree with that Gal
DANZ649:
(reincarnation) Galaxon?!
Alisnntrnt:
Gala, did okra wrong you in this
life or another?
Galaxon:
Plan hmm. not me
FoxesTruth:
Once I realized that God was
within...........my
FoxesTruth:
sense of inner peace became truth
beyond any
FoxesTruth:
other truth I have ever known...and
is still
FoxesTruth:
revealing itself
Galaxon:
Dan well....reincarnation exists but
that was not the thrust of it....
Chesster67:
dec, are you talking to hear
yourself?
DCizunas:
Chess...I make mistakes and know of no
one who sins
RBCF
3000: DCizunas, right-- that's why I
define "sin" as "a moment of
RBCF
3000: forgetting" till I remember
again
Planetshpr:
but indeed, that IS one of the
lessons of the Christed One's story.
Chesster67:
what must we shed?
DANZ649:
well said. thanks.
Planetshpr:
that the body is an illusion.
Chesster67:
DC, what do you mean by
"sin"?
DECLIGHT:
sounds so naturally perfect Foxes
DECLIGHT:
actually no Chess
Chesster67:
RB, why do we forget?
RBCF
3000: Chesster, please be patient with
us-- we all do that
DCizunas:
Chess...what do YOU mean by sin??
Galaxon:
sin is merely when a thought about a
thing is in error
RBCF
3000: Chesster, quantum differences of
spiritual energy, I figure
FoxesTruth:
Declight..........it is to me
Chesster67:
DC, i mean doing what we know is
wrong
DECLIGHT:
nothing wrong with believing in
Jesus...just realize it is only a belief
DECLIGHT:
and that Jesus did not teach that he was
all that
DCizunas:
Chess, kinda like children trying
something they shouldn't??
FoxesTruth:
agreed Declight
So so
Rus: faith and belief huh
RBCF
3000: DECLIGHT, what do you call it when
we experience the Presence of Jesus?
Chesster67:
dec, i found your statement about
the source of life intriguing
Chesster67:
i did not understand it though
DCizunas:
Oh yes, Dec
Chesster67:
DC, we all do wrong
Galaxon:
I have gotten the presents of Jesus...i
took
Galaxon:
them back to walmart and got the money for
Galaxon:
them
So so
Rus: in the spiritual relm one cannot
exist without the other
Planetshpr:
define "wrong" Chesster?
FoxesTruth:
Jesus taught that all humans have
the powers of
FoxesTruth:
the Source........which are
ultimately
FoxesTruth:
omnipotent, omnipresent, and
FoxesTruth:
omniscient..........we are only
bound by our beliefs......
DCizunas:
True Chess, we make mistakes as any
child who is learning will do and we learn from them
Chesster67:
planet, i will not define it...you
know what wrong is
Planetshpr:
know, Chess, I do not. I gave up "duality"...
Chesster67:
Foxes, where did Jesus teach that?
DECLIGHT:
3000....one can call experiencing the
presence of Jesus...or what they believe to be that...
DECLIGHT:
anything they wish
RBCF
3000: FoxesTruth, that's what I've been
going by-- do you have the chapter/verse ref's btw?
Planetshpr:
I no longer live in right/wrong.
Planetshpr:
I live in what IS.
Galaxon:
Jesus said with faith all things are
possible...that is limitless
RBCF
3000: DECLIGHT, I knew you'd say that,
and of course you are right.
FoxesTruth:
no I don't RBCF..........would that
validate it
FoxesTruth:
better??
DECLIGHT:
3000....been there, done that...and
spirit led me to a better understanding of it
Chesster67:
Planet, selfishness, apathy towards
others, greed, hate...this is wrong
DECLIGHT:
are you another one of those tricksters
3000 LOL
RBCF
3000: FoxesTruth, not at all, but it
gives me something to do in arguments on street corners
DCizunas:
Galax, I like the saying "I asked
"god" why" Reply was why
not?
Planetshpr:
no, Chess, those things are not
"wrong"... they are just judgments.
FoxesTruth:
Planet......agreed.....that is lower
mind....
Chesster67:
planet, and should we not judge
such?
Planetshpr:
what IS selfish?
Galaxon:
Dc the why was from the thoughts
Grazhopprr:
there is no wrong anymore than a lion
killing a zebra is wrong
Planetshpr:
Judge not, Chess, lest ye be judged.
FoxesTruth:
3000..........in what book would
there be a
FoxesTruth:
reference do you think???
DECLIGHT:
<< does not have a lower mind
Chesster67:
planet, do you know what greed is?
DECLIGHT:
<< also does not have a higher
mind
DCizunas:
So true Galax
Planetshpr:
greed is a judgment, Chess.
Galaxon:
Judge not lest ye be type cast on
People's Court
Chesster67:
planet, and not real?
YusefNouri:
when you examine what Christians
believe quite closely...its actually very beautiful
FoxesTruth:
LOL Declight....is that only for
egoists??
RBCF
3000: FoxesTruth, I'll bring up my Bible
CD-ROM, maybe it's cross-refed.
DCizunas:
Galax, LOL!!
DECLIGHT:
frankly, I think we've forgotten what a
mind is for
Chesster67:
Yuse, amen
YusefNouri:
as long as they don't start acting
negative
Planetshpr:
no, Chess.... NOT real. How MUCH constitutes greed?
DECLIGHT:
probably Foxes....our private hell
FoxesTruth:
3000/..........I wouldn't
know....never read the
FoxesTruth:
bible.......
Chesster67:
planet, just the slightest bit
RBCF
3000: YusefNouri, some of it is, anyway--
not the "moral" stuff, for my tastes.
Planetshpr:
If I feel I need $5 million a year,
is that greed?
FoxesTruth:
Declight.....LOLOL
Chesster67:
planet, how much of what?
Planetshpr:
What if my corporation supports
hundreds of employees with that $5 million?
DECLIGHT:
no Planet...just untrue
FoxesTruth:
3000......I channel my information
hon..........
Chesster67:
planet, if you need it..no
Chesster67:
of course not planet
Planetshpr:
still greed?
YusefNouri:
I understand RBCF
RBCF
3000: FoxesTruth, I just swiped a Gideon
from the hotel room-- it's actually fascinating.
DCizunas:
Foxes, try reading it sometime...it's
got the same things as other scripture
Planetshpr:
see, Chesster... just a judgment.
Planetshpr:
a circumstantial judgment, at that.
Chesster67:
planet, may i give you an example of
greed?
DECLIGHT:
Yuse...I have examined what Christians
believe very very closely
FoxesTruth:
DC.....oh I tried when I was a
Christian.........
Chesster67:
may i?
DECLIGHT:
and it's not beautiful at all
Planetshpr:
sure, Chess, go for it. I do not enroll in duality.
DANZ649:
IMHO, God gave us brains, we are to
decide how to use them.
RBCF
3000: Chesster, just try not to make a
mess with it
FoxesTruth:
so is this chat on Christianity?
DECLIGHT:
which is one of the two main reasons I
do not call myself Christian anymore
DCizunas:
LOL Foxes...sometimes it reads better
from a more neutral point of view
DECLIGHT:
Foxes....could be LOL
Chesster67:
planet, let us pretend that you are
stuck on an island with...your father......
YusefNouri:
I can only say what my experience
has been
FoxesTruth:
oh boy
Log
Count: There were 20 member(s) in The New
Age at 08:45 PM
RBCF
3000: FoxesTruth, it's on the inner
meaning of "faith", so I guess
RBCF
3000: we have to deal with christianity,
right?
FoxesTruth:
3000........oh no.......that's not
true
Chesster67:
there is food enough for the two of
you to live for a while....
RBCF
3000: Next week: The connection between
the principles of
RBCF
3000: modern physics and the mystery of
Existence. Please
RBCF
3000: continue whatever daily practices you
are doing-- we'll
RBCF
3000: be using everything that results
from them.
Chesster67:
you decide to beat your father up
and eat the food for yourselfl leaving him to suffer...
Chesster67:
and to die....
Lorinaz:
3K Thank you so much for sharing your love and ideas
Chesster67:
that is greed, no?
RBCF
3000: All the previous logues are
downloadable from
RBCF
3000: keyword "New Age",
Library II, if you missed any of
RBCF
3000: the previous classes, and tonight's
logue (#8) will be
RBCF
3000: available within the next week.
YusefNouri:
Christianity isn't that much of a
threat....drugs, alcohol, porno...etc...that's the stuff
YusefNouri:
that destroys lives
DECLIGHT:
actually, Jesus is about getting us to
realize the truth and thereby save ourselves
DECLIGHT:
in that context, he brought salvation
Grazhopprr:
tosses mags into bag
Planetshpr:
no, I did not forget, Chesster.
DECLIGHT:
but certainly was not alone in bringing
it
Planetshpr:
I killed my father to eat his
food... that about the size of it?
Alisnntrnt:
DEC, that could describe many paths
RBCF
3000: Chesster, but it sounds like Jesus
is some father-figure to
RBCF
3000: come and take care of us wretched
sinners. To me, Jesus
RBCF
3000: the Christ is way way way more than
that.
Galaxon:
the term "saviour" only means
someone who shows you that yhou are living in an illusion
Chesster67:
RBCF, in what way?
Planetshpr:
I don't see greed in that example,
Chesster.
FoxesTruth:
Voices...is that you Yogi?
Chesster67:
planet, what do you see?
Planetshpr:
were you going to add something to
make it greed?
Planetshpr:
<grinning>
Grazhopprr:
saviour validates the need to be
saved, it's an agreement
FoxesTruth:
saviour also means teacher
Galaxon:
foxees that is waht a saviour teaches
VoicesInTheWindd:
not always so Grazz
RBCF
3000: Chesster, He is for sure the Way
and the Truth and the
RBCF
3000: Light, but that doesn't make Him
separate from me,
RBCF
3000: because He reveals His Path as the same
one that leads
RBCF
3000: right back up to God.
Chesster67:
planet, you took more than your fair
share, neglecting that well being of your father..
Chesster67:
evil selfishness
Planetshpr:
Chesster, I see 2 people on an
island sharing resources to the extent they did.
DCizunas:
I can't imagine the kind of feelings you
have Chess, love All my fellow men, not just relation...
VoicesInTheWindd:
but usually yes
Galaxon:
foxes me what?
Chesster67:
DC? excuse me?
Galaxon:
foxes will an energy hug work?
FoxesTruth:
sure thing
Planetshpr:
"fair" is a judgment,
Chesster... My father knew I was
pregnant with twins... He ALSO knew
VoicesInTheWindd:
it will I will
FoxesTruth:
Voices..........aaahhhhhhhh I
thought so
Planetshpr:
he was dying of a terminal disease.
Galaxon:
fox ok...from the feet up
Chesster67:
planet, is everything just
judgments?
Planetshpr:
he sacrificed himself that my
children might live.
Galaxon:
Voice so what will?
Planetshpr:
absolutely, Chesster.
DECLIGHT:
sacrifice is contraindicated...and the
idea that Jesus sacrificed is nonsense
Grazhopprr:
don't remember the pregnant part
DECLIGHT:
if you merely look even casually at what
that so-called sacrifice is alleged to be...it is
RBCF
3000: DECLIGHT, I gave a wonderful class
last time on the necessity of sacrifice!
Planetshpr:
::shrugging at Graz::... HE made it
circumstantial!
YusefNouri:
Jesus endured incredible
responsibility and anguish
REBKADVD81:
perhaps Jesus is not just one person...perhaps
a group of saviours to bring forth a higher conscious
DECLIGHT:
such a wonderful idea...if ever
sacrifice really becomes nec...let me know...I'll move to another planet
DCizunas:
Chess, I would rather pass over than try
to grub out a life on this earth plane
Planetshpr:
Chess... see whether I took a
"fair" share... I took a
share. What is FAIR?
Planetshpr:
a judgment.
VoicesInTheWindd:
no Gala
YusefNouri:
the weight o Jesus' shoulders must
have been hard to bear
RBCF
3000: REBKADVD, actually, you are
probably right, since the
RBCF
3000: same story is repeated throughout
20,000 years of history
RBCF
3000: and mythology.
REBKADVD81:
well the true sacrifice is lifting
something up...into higher consciousness
RBCF
3000: REBKADVD, sure is-- have to
sacrifice limited concepts and ego-stuff, right?
VoicesInTheWindd:
okay
YusefNouri:
Jesus was in human form after all
DECLIGHT:
the truth is that sacrifice not only
isn't nec...it is impossible
REBKADVD81:
RBCF...yes i am thinkn we don't know
the half of is
Planetshpr:
(well... that, too, DEC!!! LOL!)
DECLIGHT:
sacrifice is an abstract value added to
acts...nothing more
Galaxon:
voice here it comes
FoxesTruth:
all is choice my friend
VoicesInTheWindd:
all is what I see
Galaxon:
Voice well....i can understand that
clearly. i know just what that feels like
DECLIGHT:
to believe in sacrifice is to adore fear
and deny life
RBCF
3000: DECLIGHT, in a certain way, you are
right, but to get there
RBCF
3000: don't we have to sacrifice limitation?
Grazhopprr:
<sigh>
REBKADVD81:
Rbcf.....surely would delightfully
help
DECLIGHT:
no 3000...there is no sacrifice involved
Grazhopprr:
nothing is sacrificed, it is brought
into completeness of expression
RBCF
3000: REBKADVD, you have a feeling of
many years of spiritual
RBCF
3000: practice-- what has your path been?
DECLIGHT:
well said Graz
YusefNouri:
words are just words....the real
proof comes under fire...on the battle field
YusefNouri:
of life
REBKADVD81:
RBCF...clearing out rocks ...he
...no just had wonderful grandfather
DECLIGHT:
all things are proven in all situations,
battlefields notwithstanding
Grazhopprr:
belief in the battle validates
itself
REBKADVD81:
rbfc..don't follow tribal conceptual
thinking
DCizunas:
Well, time for me to say
goodnight...catch ya later..thanks for chat
Grazhopprr:
there is a christian (again)
practice that applies, the giving up of yourself to the christ
Grazhopprr:
that is you
YusefNouri:
for example...that is what made
Hemingway so exciting to read..he lived like he wrote
Planetshpr:
beautiful, Graz...
Planetshpr:
yes.
DECLIGHT:
Graz...never heard that in Christian
teachings...if so, a very nonmainstream group
DECLIGHT:
good point though
Grazhopprr:
that's all it take, no games
RBCF
3000: Ok, friends, I'm off to bed-- you
all gave wonderful
RBCF
3000: contributions! I'll be back here for the Mind/Body/ Spirit
RBCF
3000: chat on Thursday night, and next
Monday, the subject here
RBCF
3000: will be "How the ideas of
modern physics relate to what we
RBCF
3000: are endeavoring to
accomplish". Please email me if
you'd
RBCF
3000: like the newsletter with the
schedule.